"Without Chairman Mao, would we be able to relax in the Bird's Nest or in front of our TVs to watch the Olympic Games?" Is this a trick question?

"the well-clothed and well-fed Chinese people" eh? ! Well, at least the 300 million on the coast.

Oh, sorry! DON'T MENTION THE PEASANTS!

I'm always forgetting that rule...

Just a note: the original painting is from a Chinese artist, Pop Zhao, who has put Mao in various shirts and products. After the trouble that the cover of Brutus brought him, I am not surprised he decided against his own real painting of Mao with the Olympic rings.

Did Rocky Leung face any repercussions for his depiction of Mao?

<insert generic post taking tired, sarcastic potshots at china in case anyone actually thinks that the country is capable of something positive>

hello.. i found well-fed Chinese very bad choosing of word.

Like the man said, "Our nation is wanting in strength. If our bodies are not strong, how can we attain our goals and make ourselves respected?"

Mao is a giant left in last century, remembered. http://www.chineselives.info

a question:

is it typical for the host country to use its military during the opening ceremony to raise the nation's flag?

this kind of creeped me out in beijing last week; and i don't suspect the move went over well with audiences abroad.

<insert generic joke about starting to love China when they finally get around to having that Communist Revolution they're always banging on about>

This editorial in the Washington Post today I think, in one poke of the needle sees blood:

... Mao -- his name was not mentioned during the Olympics' opening ceremonies, though his picture still hangs over the entrance to the Forbidden City -- there is no public discussion or debate.

It's not hard to understand why this is so. If the Chinese Communist Party were to present an honest version of its past, its own legitimacy might come into question. Why, exactly, does a party with a history drenched in blood and suffering enjoy a monopoly on political power in China? Why does a nominally Marxist party, one whose economic theories proved utterly bankrupt in the past, still preside over an explosively capitalist society? Because there aren't any good answers to those questions, it is in the Chinese leadership's interest to make sure they don't get asked.

Indeed, the Communist elements at the ceremony were reduced to being only at the service of "Chinese" expression, rather than parading "foreign" Communist ideals themselves.

Mao(ism) was a highly noticeable absence at the opening ceremony, and for me it was perhaps a strong indication on the recent resurgence of Confucianism in China's political and cultural consciousness. Zhang Yimou's last few films have focused on pre-Modern/Maoist settings and sentiments, Hero being the most notable; it seemed only natural that he would carry it into his contribution at the games.

The party's backing seems to be validating this new Confucianist thrust at the most high profile of platforms, a gesture that is perhaps very revealing.

That it was PLA soldiers performing Confucian customs (drumming and Zheng He voyages) was also was quite suggestive.

@slowboat: I also found this a little creepy, and don't think it did a lot of good for the way in which China is perceived by other countries. On the other hand, the army needed to get some "respect" by the organizers.

Whether or not it's customary for countries to use soldiers in such ceremonies, I don't know.

"I've altered the picture, making it into a five-rings logo."---Joel Martinsen

WHY?

Yep. I can't wait for London to showboat Britain's past of colonisation, slave trade opium smuggling, etc. After all, unlike China, Britain is a democracy and should be honest about it's past.

My understanding is that the flag crew was not, strictly speaking, military. Raising & lowering flags is what they do--they're a "color guard." Color guards in the US are typically military personnel, either retired veterans or, if active duty, representatives of each of the branches (army, navy, air force, marines, coast guard).

I don't recall whether there was a military color guard at the LA Olympics, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that there was.

Don't put the ceremonies too symbolic since mentioning PLA soldiers, Mao's absence, Confucian etc doesn't make sense. China today is no longer leading by a simple ideology. PLA soldiers were raising flags and performing in Confucian customs didn't suggest anything but because they had the most training and discipline to get the job done. Mao's absence doesn't suggest anything neither - did all Olympic games show hosting countries' founders? Let's enjoy the games.

The Washington Post editorial is clueless as usual. What "legitimacy" problem? The CCP would easily have won the popular vote had there been an election in the late 40's. Without popular support the CCP would have never come to power in the first place. Today, despite its many failures, mistakes, mishaps and problems, the CCP and the Chinese central government still enjoy a very high approval rating (if you consider the fact that more than 80% of the Chinese are satisfied with the direction in which China is heading). These clueless foreigners sitting on their fat asses thousands of miles away have no clue about China, never have and never will.

FTIn and Dor,

There is nothing "suggestive" about it. Using PLA soldiers to perform people-intensive tasks in movies, TV shows and ceremonies is extremely common in China. Why? I'd think it is because it is cheaper to work with the PLA to provide a large pool of disciplined people than say hire your own extras.

@Pffefer: Nice of you to point our that the CCP is currently China's most popular political party. Would be even better if you could list who exactly is competing against them in this popularity poll. One World, One Dream, One Party.

@pfeffer
What legitimacy problem? I would have liked to see their popularity ratings in the middle of the Cultural Revolution. Now they have high popularity ratings, but the day will come when the economy corrects itself or people want more from a government than a social contract based on getting rich, and unless there is a mechanism in place to express dissatisfaction the s&^% is going to hit the fan.

@Pffefer: No doubt the CCP had popular support during the civil war, but if all opposition hadn't been eliminated, would they have still have had it after the Great Leap Forward? After the Cultural Revolution? Also, I can't say whether Anne Applebaum's ass is fat or not, but I she does seem to have at least a clue as to what's going on.

I found the PLA flag raising to be a bit creepy too--along with the wording of the girl's (lip-synced) song. Amazing that a politburo member (a politburo member!) would micromanage the opening ceremony and take out a little girl, but not her voice, because she was not pretty enough--and have the absolutely mistaken belief that it could be in the 'nation's interest'.

Other than that the opening ceremonies were fantastic. Although I wish Zhang Yimou had put the 'Tang dynasty women' in the cleavage enhancing costumes from his 'The Curse of the Golden Flower' movie.

Yep, again Westerners shows irrational fear (more like just plain phobia and mis-understanding, not to mention slight -- nope, not going to say it) when mass crowds of Chinese military men gathers (oh no, Chinese rush tactics). And I wonder if any gathering of Chinese scares them. LOL, maybe Chinese scares them period. A very insightful and funny comments I read on the net is that some westerners are just plain scared by the massive display of unity and synchronization during the opening ceremonies. We must appear Borg like in their minds. LOL.

The truth is: Without the Chinese gov. there is no "New China." You can argue how corrupt the commies became, but they were the natural solution and correction that emerged out of Chinese's recent history "experiences." It's sad that they lost their revolutionary momentum. Instead of concentrating on scientific deveoplment, we went all revolutionary crazy. But perhaps that was the natural result, for the Chinese had to collectively figure out themselves. They still need to figure out themselves, in order to solve all the current problems that they face.

Without Mao I would NOT EXIST,since my parents met because of Mao's polices.

And no I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm no China scholar, so my post is full of cliches and ignorance. But I don't care.

@Merked: As we all discussed in the comments section of another post, it would be valuable for you to consider what else China could achieve in the past 60 years with a different government.

Looking at your neighbours and other countries in the world who started from scratch back then would be a good start.

@ Dror,

Indeed, just look at our neighbor that has similar population - India!!! China sure has done a superb job than India in terms of human development, such as life expentacy, literacy rate, poverty level, infrastructure, and many many more...

Whose afraid of the big bad Borg?
well -never afraid but certainly uncomfortable with 'masses' & their inclusiveness that rest on criteria devised by 'leaders'.

Merked - Without New China you would exist, but as a not-you; which wouldn't be the you that you know. Or should I say, don't know; given that you (& plausibly the not-you) have yet to receive collective assent as to who you are? If indeed a 'you' can even exist collectively :-)

Are you saying that those New China collective "experiences" of the past are a direct causual factor in your success & not your parents & own individual efforts? (make some inferrences since your English ain't fkd btw)

& if you were not you, are you so sure that being not-you would be worse?

Just think - the not-you could have taken the Guang Hu road & now be blogging away in Thai instead of English from a Kho Samui villa with babes & blow a-go-go. ;-)

I'm reliably informed that another not-me conformed & has more money (or rather a bigger line of credit) but is standing on a train platform in the drizzle every morning spending more time commuting, working and developing a middle-aged spread, eats, catches 3hrs of TV & then bed, just to pay the bills - poor bugger!

Whoever you are, relax & have fun watching/worrying about the Games- you & the not-you ain't here for that long!

@Aya: Please refer to the discussion in the link I provided. I'm not planning to start it all over again here.

Dror and Co.,

If you guys live in China feel free to ask around what people think about the CCP and its alternatives. There is no way of knowing how popular the CCP was before the economy started surging. Make no mistake, there are tons of people in China who hate the CCP to death for various reasons, but I'd think to this day they are still a minority. I'd worry so much about it: If the CCP becomes so unpopular, I am sure the Chinese will come up with different ways to topple it or replace it with something else, as they have done throughout Chinese history. I am saying let the Chinese be the judge, you don't have to play God and try to "look out for the Chinese people". In case you don't know, they already said "thanks but no thanks".

Dror,
"Looking at your neighbours and other countries in the world who started from scratch back then would be a good start."
No offense, but this is really retarded and lame. You are comparing apples and oranges. For example, how can you compare China and its 1.3 billion people to South Korea, who has 48 million people? The Chinese love saying "XXX with Chinese characteristics".

Once again I am saying, whatever the choice is, leave it to the Chinese. Foreigners should butt out.

@Hatch SZ (August 13, 2008 10:40 AM): You've got it backwards. Zhang Yimou took out the girl with the crooked teeth. Someone from the Politburo then complained about the new girl's voice, and so the original girl's track was subbed in.

The other misconception often stated is that the girl in the red dress is younger. No, the girl on the recorded track is younger.

Not me: Thanks for confirming my paranoid skizzo delusional selves!

As for the "conforming Not Me" he/she will soon get their day in the sun... Rather, day in a FEMA camps.

@Pffefer: I said that China's achievements in the past 60 years do not justify all the suffering and limitations inflicted on the Chinese people by their government(s).

Each country is different, and no one suggested to make direct comparisons. However, it is useful to look around and see how other countries are doing before getting excited about China's achievements and success. China is still a very poor country, with many problems that jeopardize its development and stability (and the fact that India is a semi-failed state does not change that).

I believe in China, it has come a long way, and that's why I live here and am involved in various businesses, but we need to look at the situation realistically.

Apart from that, people still use GDP/PPP in order to compare countries, and each country - big or small - has its advantages and disadvantages. To claim that China is impervious to such comparisons due to its size and population size is not reasonable.

As for the CCP etc: I think it's ridiculous to talk about the "most popular political party" in a country that has only one such party, which also happens to control the media, education system, and all other strategic industries. That said, I fully agree with you that the Chinese should make their own choices and that it's nobody's job to tell them what's good for them. What we should do, however, is make sure that the Chinese people have all the information they need in order to make (relatively) informed decisions, and the freedom to do so. The people of China don't deserve any less.

Yes, there sure was! It would have been easy to put Mao into that harness instead of Li Ning and much more memorable.

Dor,

You are essentially denying that China has made any strides, which is beyond absurd. Sure China is far from perfect (who isn't?), it is plagued by lots of problems, there is no denying of that. And the Chinese themselves know very well that China is still a poor, third-world developing country. Nevertheless the fact is China has come a long way (and has a long way to go). Could China have been better? Of course, but you can say pretty much the same about any country, including your very own.

Comparisons just don't work. How DO you compare two very different countries? Just because another country is wealthier than China you are saying China could have been better? Yes China could have been better but the benchmarks should be its past record and future potential, not because some other countries are doing better than China in certain areas. For example, just how do you compare China to the US?

I am sure if you ask around, the Chinese will resent that idea that you want to look out for them by "making sure that the Chinese people have all the information they need in order to make (relatively) informed decisions, and the freedom to do so". You might never agree with the Chinese what "unformed decisions" are. You see things differently from them. Again you are forcing your own judgment upon them and that's just wrong. Plus, given the past track record, foreigners should be kept out of Chinese affairs as much as possible. Of all people, the Chinese have done themselves the most harm but foreigners were up there too, in the distant second. They simply don't want foreigners to be involved. Maybe they will let go of it someday, but the Chinese simply don't trust foreigners enough to leave their own fate in their hands.

@Pffefer: Can't see what your point is, unless you are talking to someone else. The things you say are very similar to what I previously said. The only difference is that you originally claimed that China "made it" without any help and that the CCP is the most popular party in China. My two simple points were:

1. China has come a long way, but it has a long way to go. I wouldn't say it "made it".

2. There is only one political party in China (by and large), which also happens to control the media, police, army, communication networks, education system, etc. etc. So being China's most popular party is not much of an achievement.

Anyway, I think we both understand each other now and think along the same lines. Over and out.

When people start saying things about how awful the CCP has been to the Chinese people, there are many things right about that statement.Especially since the late 70s when the advancement of the capitalist roaders in the party started looking at the Chinese masses as nothing more than fodder for their brilliant new capitalist economy. The Chinese attempt at socialism (pre Deng) raised the standard of living, literacy, health, education of the masses of Chinese people. It gave people hope for the future around the world as well, as was expressed through the 60s and 70s anti-colonial movements in the third world and youth rebellion within the citadels of capitalism.

Still, the position from which many decry china's human rights abuses is from imperialist countries like the US and UK, who have even more bloody pasts than CCP China. Think about it, the wealth and "democracy" that many people from these countries enjoy today is built on a past that benefited from slavery, conquering other nations, land theft, old school colonialism, and new school colonialism with market capitalism - as well as current mass atrocities and human rights abuses against others countries in an attempt to steal their natural resources and make third world economies serve the interests of imperialist countries.

You are so ignorant just because you and yours aren't suffering directly at the hands of your own government, you think that your government doesn't have its own huge share of human rights violations?

Is oppression OK as long as the government perpetrating the abuse isn't doing it to its own citizens?

That's the logical conclusion to what you are saying.