methinks that myspace page belongs to someone else...

Hmmm...I dont think that's her MySpace...might be an issue with the link.

AjS

Her music is very ambient.

I would like to listen to more of her songs. She should put up more songs on her website.

Just an opinion, I think she should add more beats and other musical elements, I can see her music taking me into some very far place. But that is really me imagining how she would sound and not really her. Whatever she do she needs to stay true to her artistic styles. I'm only making suggestions. She can jazz up her improv a little. I can almost see her in this massive improv session, building up energy, then more energy, until a maddening explosion of explosive supernova!

Thanks, Matt and Adam - the link's been fixed.

Hey I'm really sorry. I take my comments back. I visited your myspace account and I think your music rocks.

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Hmm when is that DVD coming out???!!!

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Hey I like your "darker" myspace page better, much more intense!

[joined multiple comments - JM]

who's interested more in experimental music:

吴非+不一定

You got any links Yilian?

I really like Wu-Fei's music! She is really talented I think.

I love her! I can't wait to listen to her CD when it comes out. I hope it will be on sale near where I live. Her music is very unique...I listen to a lot of "commercial" music, so finding something like hers is pretty awesome.

she's not just talented, she's really professional, i do not know where you live but she made some colaboration with another chinese musician (不一定), them cd are sold in the mainland...if i found some more links i'll let you know.

Really... Hmm, let me talk to my piratey proggy matey.

Wait wait wait... I don't want to pirate her stuff. I rather buy it. Well if you can find some links so I can sample this cd I'd appreciate it.

Really I'm not going to pirate her stuff!!! I want to support her! Cuz I love her, you don't pirate people you love homie...

She's a composer, has many chamber works which I like even better. This is just one side of her music. The 2 myspace profiles are both hers i believe.

Without making any critical assessment whether her music is good or bad, one thing stands out: it's not creative.

Every single thing she does is derivative, and depends entirely on ideas that are now over a half-century old. Moreover, the people from whom she borrows produced work which is much more varied, complex and challenging.

She has three main influences:

1. John Cage (preparing the instrument, aleatoric music)
2. American minimalism (Riley, Young, Reich; she sounds most like Phil Glass, whom I consider to be the least interesting of the above)
3. Free improv performers like Keith Rowe from AMM (who has enjoyed renewed popularity in recent years - there has been a resurgence of this type of music in the last decade)

I will personally find what she does more interesting when it involves something - anything - other than copying others. One might counter that the fact she integrates what she has borrowed on guzheng already qualifies as an innovation. However, a brief listen to the corpus she references shows how profoundly conservative [read: unimaginative] her approach is.

This is not to say that something has to be new to be good. However, I am absolutely claiming there is nothing whatsoever creative in what she is doing **any more than any other performer working in any other existing musical canon**. It absolutely is not experimental, in any sense of the term - unless you are willing to insist that any performance of an existing music piece or form is experimental, in which case she was just as experimental a performer before going to the US as she is now.

She has moved from one canon to another; nothing more, nothing less. She moved from one set of forms and techniques to another - both learned in school - and is learning to express herself within that context. She is not testing anything other than her own ability to work within those boundaries.

Whether you like it or not is a matter of taste.

Cheers

Hmmm she's pretty experimental to me. Well, I like her music, so she's got a fan. I think she's awesome.

What can you do Du Yisa? A musican? A music critic? You are entitled to your opinions I guess.

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Stand on the shoulders of giants, not fools!

[joined multiple posts - JM]

Hi Jay

It's experimental to you because you're ignorant - not to put too fine a point on it. Just to emphasize that fact, I'll include links to three sites that everyone who knows anything at all about free improv is familiar with: Metamkine, Erstwhile and Sound 323 - they were in the Wire years ago, for goodness sakes - a magazine which features pop artists like Fennesz, PanSonic and Ryoji Ikeda. If you don't know most of the names on these sites - and evidently you don't - you don't know either sound art or free improv. Again, what I am showing you is anything but obscure.

The fact is, it's not just that other people have done what Wu Fei does, it's that every single thing she does long ago became so prevalent as to be cliché - to the extent that it's mainstreamed its way into academic programs. This means the clips on the strings, the slide, the rubber ball with the toothpick in it - these things were given to her, she didn't arrive at a single one herself. There is no difference between the moment when she shows the plectrums and when she shows the implements mentioned above. They were both presented to her in school. All she's done is learn how to use them. That's good as far as it goes, and she deserves credit for her work, but it's neither creative nor experimental - unless you want to argue that moving from the PRC to the USA and switching from a squat to a seated toilet is also creative and experimental. It's just a different system that involves somewhat different habits. Of course, there's room for expression within each system, including the production of vocal noises.

If you want to know what is actually going on regarding sound art and free improv in the PRC (which is not much), a good place to start is Global Noise Online, run by Lawrence Li, currently at large in Beijing.

Finally, Cage's "Sonatas and Interludes for Prepared Piano" (1946-48) is as established (if not as frequently performed, although numerous recordings exist) in the western classical canon as Beethoven's "Für Elise". If you're not even familiar with that, well, refer to top. Again, it was written in 1946-48.

Sorry. It's like trying to have a conversation about 3G mobile phones with someone who doesn't even know what a telephone is. Hello?

Your comments are at most are of an informed enthusiast, and such your claims shall be weighted as such. Certainly I don't think you are Wu Fei's peer, thus your judgments are baseless. I strongly doubt your achievements are anywhere near hers. Frankly I don't think you have the right to even critize her in such a manner.

In other words I don't care about your opinions brah, on the net you can talk all the talk and walk all the walk.

My problem is that you have no problem criticizing other people's hard work, and so harshly. Do you have self esteem issues?

The truth? The truth is that you are hateful.

In case you didn't know she's not all experimental. I love her especially on the Shan Qi DVD. Although that one is more of an group thing.

The point is that she is much more talented than an Internet trash talking foo... scratch that... Internet playa hater. *Cuz that's what you are, a playa hater. Hate the game don't hate the player...

*You have arrived at a new low, being labeled as a player hater by some anonymous Internet trash talker. This is your reality, live it.

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I suppose a major beef of yours is that she is doing what has been done before? None lives in a vacuum brah. Human knowledge is such that no one can master all. We all have to stand on the shoulder of giants.

Unless of course we're Du Yisa. Polymath genius Internet know it all.

[joined multiple comments - JM]

Thanks Jay.

I'm perfectly happy to accept all your comments, with two caveats:

1. My observations were in fact conspicuously devoid of judgments; rather, they were intended as dispassionate factual reportage, and should be read as such. Unlike you, I took no position regarding the quality of Wu Fei's work.

2. At no point did I "criticize other people's hard work". My point was quite the opposite.

Regarding the rest of your contributions, I couldn't have said it myself.

Yes, you are not making critical assessment on whether or not her music sounds good to you but you are making a critical judgment nonetheless by claiming that she is not creative.

We're just arguing semantics.

The only problem I have is that you judge people very harshly. Why? Can you do better? Are you more creative? That's the only problem I have. You should not have been so harsh by plainly calling her uncreative. I think she is undeserving of your harsh critiques, being a creative artist herself.

I don't know why I even care. I doubt Wu Fei cares.

Actually I don't even know why I'm tripping. YOu have your opinions. If you think she is not creative fine. It's a matter of taste.

OMG what is wrong with me? I must have a crush on Wu Fei, or something like that...LOL?

LOL.. That's it!

Hi Jay

Actually, I'm glad you called me out on my use of the word 'creative', because it's the one word I wish I hadn't used when I reread my comment. The fact that I used it rather than 'experimental' does reveal a bias against Wu Fei's work, and, in fact, I agree it was harsh.

Basically, I think you're right on this point.

Maybe you're tripping because Wu Fei is actually creating something - she's doing her thing, working with sound, and if she likes it, and others like yourself like it, what's the basis to attack it? Ethical issues aside, a judgment based on taste is purely personal and subjective, unless it's linked to an ideology - something which easily lends itself to dangerous practices such as accusations of 'cultural pollution', or requiring someone to criticize themselves for their bourgeois and counter-revolutionary deviation from the 8 Model Works, for that matter.

Actually, it wasn't my intent to attack her work. I have nothing against her, the Twelve Girls Band, or similar projects. However, I suggest that my comments might help to elucidate what it is in fact Wu Fei is doing - what 'her thing' is. It's not happening in a vacuum - what she does, how she understands it and the terminology she uses to describe it all come from somewhere. As it happens, a rather significant part of that 'somewhere' isn't her own creativity - it was given to her by others, and clearly delimits her activity. 'Her thing' is not a reinterpretation, extension, rejection or even much of an investigation of what she was given. It's a limited assimilation.

I suggest the application of the term 'experimental' to her work has less to do with what she does, and more to do with how it is perceived by persons such as yourself, who aren't familiar with the practices she has adopted, not to mention their history.

Note I am not saying her work would be better if it were more experimental (although I personally would find it more interesting). I'm simply saying it isn't. I don't care whether she knows or cares, but I do consider it important to recognize the distinction between innovation and imitation.

Cheers

I'm put off by her missionary-like passion trying to 'enlighten' Chinese musicians/scene. As it happened, for many Chinese musicians, experience in the West actually has a stagnating effect. Liu Sola comes to mind. This is perhaps because the experience was a physical one which inevitably suffers from the limitation of one's desolated body. The professional musical training they had has shut out access to out-of-range styles/genres/mindset/etc., which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it certainly doesn't grant you the position of missionary. As a matter of fact, the most keen and forward-thinking listeners/practitioners in China went far beyond free improv and 'arbitrary mash-up' long time ago. Wu Fei's account of how musical education in America has liberated her from the traditional academic thinking and opened up the brave new world of free imporv for her matters only for herself, as most of the Chinese experimental musicians don't have that baggage of tradition in the first place. To all the self-proclaimed musical missionaries out there: there's such a thing called internet, use it before you depart on your grand mission.

Yeah. That's fine dude. I admit I'm uninformed in this area. Anything that is not main stream, i.e what I listen to, sound "experimental" to me. My whole point was that you sounded "harsh" but after re-reading I now see your point. I cannot say I'm in a position to fully evaluate what you are saying. I was speaking from a position of emotional reaction, for that I apologize.

All I can say at this point is that I enjoy HER music. I never said that I was attempting to take some sort of journey through experimental music. I heard her stuff, and I like it. Most likely a lot of what you consider exprimental would be too much for me.

Hi Jay

Well, I was harsh. You were right about that.

If you get something from someone's work, I don't think any kind of justification is needed. However, it seems to me that understanding is something different. Basically, we're all ignorant, because our ability to recognize even what we ourselves are and do is so limited.

I'm just adding another comment to say that in my opinion (for what it's worth), a work doesn't have to be difficult to be either good or experimental. Sometimes it's harder to be simple: e.g. it's not easy to write a good children's book, or to play a simple structure with attention and feeling over an extended period (cf Morton Feldman's work).

Whereas an experimental work - as I understand the term - is challenging by definition, this challenge doesn't have to be difficult on every level, and sometimes might even go unnoticed if the audience isn't paying attention.

It's my opinion that a truly great work rewards however much attention is given to it, from multiple perspectives. I've never been satisfied with my own ability to create something of such quality, and I probably never will. All I can try to do is pay attention.

Besides, a lot of work I like isn't trying to be great; just to be what it is. However, it seems to me that to understand something is fundamentally to keep it in perspective - as this perspective changes, understanding changes as well. By necessity, we're always making assumptions based on limited information. So far as I can tell, recognizing whether our understanding of something is dependable or not relies on our recognition of (the limits of and biases inherent in) our own perspective. This means real ignorance is when we don't even know what we don't know. It seems to me we all have this problem.

So what? So I value experimental work because it helps me gain perspective. Of course, works that were never intended as experimental can also help me do this, because of my limitations. Simply, I respect the act of experimentation, and believe that terms like 'experimental' are more informative and ultimately meaningful when used with knowledge and care.

I have to go. Hope that was interesting.

Well, what an excellent thread, with Du Yisa and Lawrence capturing a commendably objective view of Chinese modern music via the Wu Fei debate. Their analysis is absolutely correct in my view, but there again most musicians get on with making (their?) music and are, in the main, strangely isolated from a broader grasp of what goes on/whats gone on. The 'underground', however that is defined, has always been the lifeblood of popular music, like it or not.

Let's get Terry Riley to Beijing ..........

Cage got a lot of his ideas from Cowell; Cowell got a lot of his ideas from Satie etc...but we can't say that Satie was the first person who invented prepared-instrumental music. He must had gotten his ideas somewhere else.

have you even heard her other stuff rather than this clip? at least give yourself a chance to listen more before putting the words out there so quickly (like a blind person thinking that an elephant is the size of a rope or something.) my suggestion is to listen to her compositions, they will give you more perspective of what she does. "Red Carriage" is an amazing composition of hers, written for marimba, tom-toms, and gongs (i think), but played by a solo percussionist. it's pretty funky in the middle section.

anyways, I hate "labeling" music. music is all personal and self-expressive, nothing else. "experimental music"? i think Bach was way more experimental than Cage based on their historical backgrounds. Without the ancient Chinese philosophy, where would Cage relate to? After all, we are all short-sighted because we only live several decades. So, let's not use the limited knowledge and depth we have to tell others that certain things should be done in certain ways.

btw, the post-medieval time 4-line notation could be the father of the modern graphic notation, and it's much more interesting to read. If you don't believe it, ask Stokhausen.

Wu Fei's got a mission, why can't you?

I prefer knowing before speaking.

Hi Chinaren.

Thanks for the rebuttal. You wrote:

"Cage got a lot of his ideas from Cowell; Cowell got a lot of his ideas from Satie etc...but we can't say that Satie was the first person who invented prepared-instrumental music. He must had gotten his ideas somewhere else."

Not only is this a logical non-sequitur, it has no bearing on the discussion at hand. Wu Fei's preparation of her instrument and incorporation of chance elements is copying practices mainstreamed by Cage, period. What Cowell or Satie did or did not do is entirely irrelevant.

You also wrote:

"So, let's not use the limited knowledge and depth we have to tell others that certain things should be done in certain ways."

I did no such thing. I hope you enjoyed your conversation with yourself. Your comments about Bach, Chinese philosophy and western musical notation in no way refute the fact that Wu Fei is treading on extremely well-travelled ground. This doesn't make her work either bad or good. However, it means by definition that it isn't experimental.

"music is all personal and self-expressive, nothing else."

Nonsense. Music is many different things - just look at what Confucius had to say about it, or how it is used during the Olympics, at marriages and funerals, in advertisements, inside shopping malls, religious ceremonies, etc. I'm listening to Ottoman court music as I write this - something its creators possibly didn't anticipate.

"I prefer knowing before speaking."

I know I'm personally not impressed by vacuous posturing.

Your scattershot historical references are used to bolster a position that boils down to something like 'everyone has influences'. So what? It is what one does with one's inheritance that determines whether one's work is experimental or not.

Look at it this way: The first time I ate - much less tried to prepare - Xinjiang food, it was an experiment for me. Would you therefore characterize Xinjiang food as 'experimental'? The issue is whether a practice is previously codified or not (à la a recipe), not whether I personally have engaged in it. I didn't have to invent Xinjiang food; it was there already. I must do more than merely adopt its forms to engage in experimentation beyond a purely personal extent.

Conversely, if you are suggesting that such categories are meaningless, then everything becomes congee: an oud is a pipa is a biwa, a guzheng is a se is a komungo is a koto, Fulani music is blues is rock is funk is Wu Fei's "Red Carriage"... you get the idea. Both directions (everything is experimental vs nothing is experimental) are intellectually bankrupt.

If you want to claim that incorporating funky percussion into a contemporary composition is experimental, I challenge you to demonstrate how. Wu Fei may well have her own style, but that doesn't mean what she does is experimental - unless you're willing to grant the same distinction to any pop star who sounds a little different from everyone else.

If you take the trouble to formulate a coherent argument that wasn't already anticipated by my previous comments, we might have an interesting conversation.

Finally, I just can't let this one past:

"After all, we are all short-sighted because we only live several decades."

One of the distinguishing and interminably discussed characteristics of homo sapiens is our ability to transmit information across both time and space via various forms of training, language, and (recording) technology. Disregarding the fact that this is specifically how Wu Fei acquired the physical tools and compositional vocabulary to do what she does, what the hell are you trying to say?

I have nothing to say, and I am saying it. that's all. It's life, no right or wrong. We all got parents who also have parents...some have big eyes, some have big butts etc., and they will always find the ones they fit in, even the "ugliest" looking ones. People's taste always change too. Who know what Wu Fei will be doing in 3 years? Who know what we will be liking in 3 years? Sitting in front of the computer typing the same comments about what "experimental music" is? hope not. "experimental music" wouldn't be happy if it still have the same perspective. 60 years ago, "expressionlessness" was the "trend" in contemporary music, it's completely different now.

Well, we all get wired up by Wu Fei's clip, at least from this fact, it makes me think that she's got something going on. If not, we wouldn't be here spending so much time and energy typing all this stuff. After all, we have given a lot of effort and publicity to her no matter negative comments or positive.

Du,are you a musician or a composer? mind to share your sound with others?

Does she even consider her self experimental?

That's what I'm saying, why even label her, it's cool as long as she's doing it.

Why label her as such and claim that she's not advancing some genera, when all she's trying to do is play music.

But I detect a deeper beef caused by some of her actions. That I can't comment on.

Hello. She updated her Myspace page with a music check vid. I still think she is awesome!!! She's a bad ass. Listen to her sound check, she's jamming the f*ck out on that thing.

She has just updated her myspace again with a new video of her composition premiere in the Forbidden City Concert Hall. I feel a big regret of not knowing about this performance when it was happening. The French percussion ensemble sounds amazing!! Well, the piece is simply amazing!!
I mean it.

Thank you Danwei TV for promoting such an interesting artist!