touching

Three minutes of NOISE? You think that's noise? I don't understand why you stay in China??????? GET OUT OF HERE!!! The earthquake is not only about China but the whole human race's TRAGEDY.

when i listened into the screaming horn i almost cried

carrie,
you need to take a deep breath and look again.
it's best not to blog upset.

咋这么多愤青呢？

i still think 'three minutes of noise' is not an appropriate title here, when you read a blog, the first thing you read is the title, and I found it offensive. Noise: (an) unwanted or unpleasant sound (quoted from Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English).

报料
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Quite different to the two minutes of silence I remember observing every year in school on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, but somehow very appropriate.

@Carrie - It quite obviously is noise, but it is noise being made to mark a tragedy. I do not think that it was posted at all in an effort to belittle the event.

+1 @ Carrie and kaka

hopefully someone can fix the title b4 the real "fen qing"'s find out about this post and blow it out of proportion

Noise is the opposite of silence. It is not negative as a single word descriptor for the sound of klaxons and horns. It would not normally be read as negative by a native English speaker.

The noise was as much a part of the observation as the silence. It was a perfect contrast to the stillness and silence, as it provided some expression for the grief.

I am OK with Jeremy's title, also since it plays off the idea of 'silence' which is what most people have read about. I hope people can appreciate this usage of language.

@Kaka - "Noise: (an) unwanted or unpleasant sound (quoted from Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English)"

Again with the dictionary translations, the same thing which had a bunch of - to be frank - fools believing that the fact that the English word 'Chinese' contained the word-particle '-ese' meant that English speakers were attempting to belittle the Chinese. Please, please, look at how the word is used in ordinary speech and try to interpret its meaning from that - not from some half-understood dictionary translation. Noise can be used in a way simply indicating sound and nothing else.

At any rate, considering the sound and only the sound in isolation from anything else, do you think the sound is pleasant? Is it wrong to call this sound noise? I looks to me as if you are looking for a fight, expecting insult and finding it everywhere you look.

@ashen

Thank you for the explanation for 'noise', I am not a native English speaker, so it is easy for me to think that is an offensive title. Also, is this web site mainly for native English speakers? I am sure there are heaps of native Chinese speakers reading this web site, although we don't speak or write perfect English, but we have tried our best to understand another language and other cultures.

There are many foreigners who are always critical at China, so at this moment, as Chinese,we are a bit sensitive. Anyway, there is no point to argue if there is a right explanation.

i would have thought sound was the opposite of silence, but never mind, noise isn't really negative and I am sure it wasn't meant to be so.

still, phil spector's wall of noise doesn't quite have the same ring. or the beach boy's pet noise...;)

After reading through all the Chinese and western comments, here are my foundings:

1. no matter Chinese or western, we all agree with the definition of noise. That's good becoz that's the bases why we argue here.

2. So, from the word, I found some hidden emotion behind it. It caused some western ears' uncomfort so you may think silence is better mourning way.....I'm open with the question and I think actually it's a good question becoz in downtown area of metropolitan like beijing, will such loud sound cause some problems? BTW, I use "sound". Yes, SOUND. You may use it as politely as I. Becoz, have you ever heard such "noise" being made to happen AT THE SAME TIME and END AT THE SAME TIME?!

3. My closure:
You can criticize. We are open with it. But you really chose a bad timing. Just after the heavy mourning momment, you couldn't wait to post the blog, which made me suspect- in your deep heart down, have you ever never felt a tiny little bit of sorrow for so many lifes in front of such a catatrophe? You don't have to answer rushly but just give it a thought.

Carrie:

No criticism at all is intended. It's just a description. I hope you can see from all our other coverage that I and other Danwei contributors only intend respect for the victims.

To FOARP
I am not looking for a fight. I am just expressing what I felt honestly, I am not FENQING who wants fight verbally or physically all the time. We learn another language from looking up dictionay, I quoted the explanation because I am confused, since there is no clause saying it has neutral meanning. That's why I raised this issue. I am a qualified translator, but to be able to handle English thoroughly, there is long way to go. I love dictionary, please don't say it is stupid.

And thanks Jeremy,as I said we (Chinese) are very sensitive over this period,but picking up fights is childish and pointless.

Maa...noise can indeed have a negative tone. Us Chinese have been pretty sensitive to negativity lately, which I think is understandable seeing all the oppositions we've had to face all around the world.

Maybe you really wanted to make a point to showcase the style and personality of your blog with this title. But if, by any chance you wanted a suggestion, I'd say "3 Minutes of Wailing" sounds better to me.

Cheng - trust me, from a native english perspective, noise is way better than wailing when it comes to negative connotations.

I love this thread - reminds me of my first 6 months in China when I was teaching english.

@kaka, and other posters,

kaka thank you for your comments. i appreciate your contribution to this discussion, and where you were coming from with your concern.

it's a luxury of course that we can even have this chat about semantics and the nuance of language, in light of all that is happening. but this site is as much about building understanding as anything else, and so it is in this spirit that i continue this conversation. i hope you will bear with me.

as mike points out of course noise can have a negative connotation, but in this context i still think that no native English speaker would watch this clip with this title and see it as anything but a respectful, deeply moving display of Chinese solidarity and grief.

i think Jeremy's experience as a writer and editor serve him well here. he simply observed that the 'silence' as has been written about was actually as loud as it was quiet. thus, the choice of the word 'noise'. again, i think the choice of the word as apt as a natural, value-neutral descriptor for a very loud sound.

'wailing', as cheng suggests is a good alternative, but as a matter of writing style a bit more loaded, and i think awkwardly so.

i find 'noise' to be a more unadorned descriptor, more plain, and therefore the more plaintive, somehow.

just my 两分.

peace to you all.

To Jeremy

After reading ashen's comment above, I started to understand why you chose such a word. It's really an eyeball-catching title. But apparently it arose two distinctly different opinions. I believe readers like ashen understood it fairly enough, but how about readers like FOARP?

I apologize for the inappropriate words I used for the first time. Becoz I agree with ashen, we are here to understand one another not to bulid new wall between us.

But still, I hold my opinions to this title.

@Carrie - I also am a great user of dictionaries, but I recognise that the whole meaning of words is not contained in them (and how often you see this when reading Chinese!). In this case, it is obvious that no criticism is meant, and even more obvious when you read other things written by the author. True, 'noise' can carry negative connotations - just as adding "-ese" to the end of something can (in certain circumstances) be used to signify that it is nonsense - this does not mean that everything that is called 'noise' is being criticised or that every word that ends in '-ese' is being mocked.

If you look above, you will see that what my initial reaction to the video was - that it was quite different but seemed equal in meaning to the two minutes silence we observe traditionally here in the UK every year at 11 o' clock on the 11th of November to remember those who died in the world wars. This is, I think, the meaning that the author intended to communicate. It is only if you are automatically expecting foreigners to insult China that you would believe otherwise. My suggestion is, if you do not want people to think you are a 愤青, then don't be so 愤怒!

To FOARP,

When I read Jeremy's title, the first thing I did was looking up the dictionary and hoping to get some answers like 'noise does not necessary have negative meaning'. I have good impression on this web site, that is why I posted my first comment, maybe I sound a little bit aggressive, I apologize for that. You know we learned English from 'How do you do, fine thank you and you?', when I was in Australia people laughed at me when I greeted people in this way. See after reading this discussion I learned how to use 'noise' and 'wailing', and I am pretty sure Carrie is not intending to pick up a fight. Everybody loves, cares about his/her country, it is understandable.

There are Fenqings in China, but most of Chinese I knew are humble and willing to communicate and understand other cultures.

The resaon I respect dictionary is one of my lecturers used to post me a Cambridge Dictionary. When I received it, I thought it was an insult,I wrote to her to say thanks and said I would study English hard. She replied me that she didn't mean to criticise my English skills, she is Polish herself, she understood how hard to grasp a foreign language well, and a good dictionary will benefit your whole life.

Well, it is getting irrelevant with this discussion. At least, you should see we didn't spread the words and ask Fenqings to come and attack this clip.

To FOARP

First of all, I don't care the label of 愤青 or not. I feel lucky I could be angry becoz that's the right ONLY LIVE PPL could enjoy. So that's why I felt angry for those dead.

Secondly, I feel you also have anger from your words. Why not have the courage to admit it? We are here to discuss. And I have faced every word I said. Could you deal with your anger first?

And all in all, I have said I've started to understand the title...yeah when writing here, I am thinking your previous words, I couldn't help luaghing...it shows we are both human...And you have explained why and I accpet it. Now let divert our attention to the real damage scene, okay?

seems not only I have some hard feelings with the dictionaries. but regarding the definition of such a word as "noise" and all the fuss resulting from it, a good dictionary, and perhaps some harder looking, like scanning all the items and scrolling down to the last page will suffice to make it clear. after reading this thread, i immediately looked up the infamous kingsoft powerword 2005, and found its definition (or rather the one borrowed from the legendary American Heritage Dictionary) for noise. F.Y.I.

noise

n.（名词）
Sound or a sound that is loud, unpleasant, unexpected, or undesired.
噪音：高的、不悦耳的、不想听到的或不喜欢的响声或声音
Sound or a sound of any kind:
声音，响声：
The only noise was the wind in the pines.
唯一的响声是松林中的风声
A loud outcry or commotion:
喧嚣声：高声的呼喊或呐喊：
“Whatever the fate of Eureka, it should have some positive effects, even if modest in comparison to its political noise, for the technological cooperation of European firms”(Foreign Affairs)
“无论欧雷卡的命运如何，都将带来正面的影响，纵然这比与它在政治上引起的骚动小得多，因为它导致欧洲各公司间的技术合作”(外交事务)
Physics A disturbance, especially a random and persistent disturbance, that obscures or reduces the clarity of a signal.
【物理学】 干扰噪声：一种干扰，尤指一处任意的和持续的干扰，使信号变模糊或减少
Computer Science Irrelevant or meaningless data generated by a computer along with desired data.
【计算机科学】 无用数据：计算机产生的与所需数据不相干或无意义的数据

...

and then, it has a further discussion on the evolution of the word later down the page, which i selectively quote here,

"For those who find that too much noise makes them ill, it will come as no surprise that the word noise possibly can be traced back to the Latin word nausea, “seasickness, feeling of sickness.” Our words nausea and noise are doublets, that is, words borrowed in different forms from the same word ... Noise, however, is an example of how words can change for the better, for a noise can be pleasant as well as unpleasant, as in the sentence “The only noise was the wind in the pines.”

I hope this information helps. Also, can anyone here precisely translate the phrase "make some noise" into Chinese?

Thanks :-)

I am definitely a native English speaker, and when I first saw this title in my RSS feed I assumed it was going to be critical. To be honest, I thought that it was going to be a clip demonstrating how no one observed a moment of silence. But it was only after I watched it and realized that the honking was planned that it made sense to me.

It is true that "noise" is not necessarily negative (e.g. "Did you hear that noise?"), but in the title it does give that impression and required further examination, for me at least. So, I can understand the reaction of Carrie and kaka (just as a note, "kaka" has other connotations which you might or might not be aware of...).

That said, I guess this demonstrates that everyone ought to read something fully before they assume... And if there is anything which is still unclear, starting off with a question ("Is the word 'noise' being used in a negative way here?") will incite a lot better discussion than an attack.

Seems to me concern about noise is creating more noise. Let's all be civil, shall we?

Andrew, you are the champ! I had exactly the same reaction when I read the title, though I didn't pay attention to the clip to find out whehter it is offensive or not. Yes, should have started the question as "Is the word 'noise' being used in a negative way here?" , then I will sound civil :)

And to Ashen, most of comments here sound civil for me, so the 'noise' we created here is helpful for people to understand this clip.

And "make some noise", let me try:
1)制造噪音 (This machine does make some noise!这个机器会制造噪音!)
2)出点儿声 (Let's make some noise and wake her up!让我们出点儿声把她吵醒吧!)

I hope they make sense to you.This phrase can be translated into different thing according to its circumstance. I hope I pass this translation test, lol.

Regards,
kaka

kaka, you are the champ! lol

说实话,我的第一感觉是不好的.和ANDREW说得一样,看到标题我就是这个感觉.之前我认为这个词除了中性就是贬义(DISSAPROVING?),因为我经常看到的NOISE都是和某些UNPLEASANT事情联系在一起的.我是个中国人,当时很多汽车共同鸣笛的时候说实话我也感觉很吵,但我尊重这种祭悼方式.鸣笛时,我是很难过的.总之,语言里有些词在某些语境里总是有些模棱两可的意思,如何理解都行.想大家无需太在意这个标题了,JUST FORGET IT.我的英语较差,怕不能够准确表达我的意思,所以用中文.希望大家谅解.