worst. post. ever.

our correspondent should kindly offer links or potential evidence showing instances in which Saudi state surveillance of internet usage has led to the summary and extra-judicial execution of an individual.

our correspondent should also reconsider the rhetorical value of the downward comparison when adverting to widespread criticisms of China or, for that matter, any other country, culture, and/or community of people.

"It also draws attention to the hypocrisy of the Mia Farrow and Richard Gere crowd. Whereas Farrow and her ilk do have a chance to influence American foreign policy, their influence on Chinese policy, domestic or international, is minimal"

Agreed, but we all pick our critiquing battles and as individuals we not capable of pointing the finger at all.

Farrow and her ilk might just want to influence American foreign policy, since that policy would include handling of matters relating to China, and thus also influence Chinese policy. I don't understand how a Saudi killing his daughter leads to Mia Farrow, but whatever.

Yeah, I've got to agree with a lot of what b. said. A father killing his daughter for internet use is much different than the state taking action against individuals for their relatively harmless internet use. The news story doesn't really put anything in perspective with regard to Beijing's censorship of the internet and imprisonment of those who use the internet in a way they don't approve of.

Terrible post.

Mia Farrows is a hypocrite if she doesn't protest against tragic cases of family violence?
I don't like her too much, but this is ridiculous.

And what about, say, Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch? I doubt they will be paying much attention to this case. Does that make them hypocrites to Mr. Goldcorn?

aah, I see. April Fools Day.

This murder was the work of an individual Saudi citizen, not the state. But in this case, the individual citizen's action was not much different from how the Saudi state sometimes behaves, particularly with regard to women.

I guess this is kind of like saying, "The monks shown in this picture were actually being beaten in Nepal. But in this case, the actions of Nepal are not much different from how the Chinese state sometimes behaves, particularly with regard to Tibetans." We should start anti-danwei.org now to expose your shameful anti-Saudi bias...ugh.

>>Kinda puts Chinese Internet censorship into perspective.

Yeah, we all know that Chinese who post stuff online that the government doesn't like never end up in jail for years. But, hey, random individuals don't kill them!...or something.

>>It also draws attention to the hypocrisy of the Mia Farrow and Richard Gere crowd.

Huh? I'd guess that Mia Farrow and Richard Gere are just as critical of US foreign policy as they are of Chinese foreign policy. So how are they hypocrites? Or does criticising the foreign policy of a nation you weren't born in make you a hypocrite automatically? This probably makes everyone on the planet a "hypocrite."

You might actually google "Mia Farrow and Bush Administration" -- you'd probably find various right-wing web sites attacking her for claiming that "Bush went to war for oil" and for attacking Bush on Darfur, etc. Ditto on Gere. But, then, I've always maintained that the Chinese left and the American right are two peas in a pod.

Personally, I think what Farrow and Gere are doing is counterproductive - but I don't see how they are "hypocrites" in any sense.

it seems that W. has indeed put his mouth where his money is, if not the other way round.

You do see the irony here, don't you? You are criticizing the Bush administration for financing/be financed by Saudi Arabia. Why is that bad? Well, Saudi Arabia has a terrible system of internet censorship (as you pointed out with your anti-Saudi bias!) and an abysmal human rights record! You may have more in common with Mia Farrow and Richard Gere than you realize.

Anyway, there is probably a foreign blogger living in Saudi Arabia who could show you that you are just "hurting the feelings of the Saudi people" with your hypocritical criticism. You don't understand Saudi Arabia's problems, culture, and history. They have a different religious and cultural tradition and whatever they do within their own borders is an internal matter. Most Saudis want censorship and think any girl who chats online should be stoned to death -- and you think they have been brainwashed by the government?? If anything, the government isn't harsh enough! YOU have been brainwashed. Why are you so arrogant, you white imperialist you?

And so on.

Weird post. The Tibet situation should be judged on its own merits- how can you objectively say one action is worse than another? How can you quantitatively measure the human suffering caused by certain policies, and the degree to which a country is guilty, and then draw comparisons? We can't actively campaign for every worthy cause, and I think it's enough if we don't support bad causes. I get tired of being accused of hypocrisy for criticizing China because my government attacked Iraq, or whatever, when it is in fact my accuser that is hypocritical for opposing the Iraq invasion and supporting China in Tibet while I oppose both.

what b. said. And then some.

J B,

It is not so much that you as an American citizen is a hypocrite for criticizing how China handles Tibet, especially when you clearly stated that you oppose both (do you really oppose the Iraq War and have you been outspoken about it?), it is the notion of western governments accusing China of mishandling Tibet that is really the focus of the accusation.

The Chinese have a lot to learn from the west. One of the things is becoming assertive and self-righteous enough to start a Chinese language blog dissecting western societies, every bit of them. Oh well.

Pffefer,
Chinese people should start such websites. I think it's necessary, in fact, for a society to have websites such as this that provide detailed information about other countries and cultures, even if they are prejudiced in one way or another- and I think Jeremy has said enough to show that he's not your typical prejudiced Westerner. This sort of website can humanize other countries in a way that mainstream media can't by offering a more detailed look at another society, and getting away from stereotypes. It may be less than perfect, but it's an improvement, and in today's world we need to take what we can get.
As for Iraq, I'm sure you'll be gratified to know that I protested against the war in the US. I've never really debated with anyone over it on line or in real life, because I've never knowingly met an Iraq war supporter (I'm from a very anti-Bush city and my college had more Communists than Republicans), and I spend far more time on China-related websites because that's my area of interest, and it has more bearing on my career. I barely have time to comment on these sites, so I hope you'll forgive me for not going to military.com to try to argue with the Bushies. I hope you'll believe me when I say that if I did come across a pro-Iraq war comment when looking through websites I normally read, I would criticize that commenter.
As for the American government, I'm not going to defend Bush or the Republican Party, but I will say that even hypocritical criticism should be welcomed. For instance, I was happy with French criticism of the Iraq war, because it reminded Bush that not everyone approved of what he did, and restrained him in some small way. This was despite the fact that France still has some dubious policies of its own, in places like Cote d'Ivoire, for example. I sympathize with you because I hate it when French people or other Europeans talk about American stupidity and provincialism, but the criticism can be friendly as well- I don't mind being told that Bush is bad so long as I'm not being insulted in the process. Criticism should be separated from the hypocrisy of the criticizer- the focus should be on whether or not there's truth in the criticism itself, and which parts are fair and which are not. The hypocrisy should be dealt with as a separate issue, and does not necessarily decrease the value of the criticism.
But believe me, I share your pain, in a way- I hate it when people tell me 3,000 people in my hometown deserved to be murdered because of American foreign policies they were not responsible for.

Great post! The murder was done by an individual but the light to non-existent sentence for that murder will come from the state.

china law blog: fair enough, but then how does that put chinese internet censorship into perspective (which was the point of the post)?