I was just speaking about this subject on a long telephone call with a friend in Madrid. I am bemused by the sudden conversion of Hong Kong people to Mainland Chinese values and I can only think that it comes down to money. China is the new money and that's where the patriotism lies.

He makes some good points, especially about HK people carrying foreign passports as an insurance policy. Of course the same situation applies in Mainland China where many people, including the children of senior communist party officials, will get a foreign passport or green card if they are able to.

Be patriotic to the motherland but have a foreign passport just in case ... or at least a relative overseas who can help you invest your money outside China.

These people know that China is not a stable place and things could go downhill very quickly.

Two words: Exit Strategy

And yes, the Cantonese (HKers included) are ALWAYS characterized as "pragmatic". You can't escape that word when discussing Guangdong, Guangzhou, Cantonese and, inevitably, their business and economic sense.

It also means (their pragmatism) they are never true citizens of anywhere (including their own hometowns) and are mere users of wherever they can grab a passport to. The newer, post 1980s emigrants, at least.

I've seen Cantos lined up at border crossings waving passports from such usless (as far as entering most nations visa free) places as Nauru, Honduras, and Fiji!!

to David Oliver

Is it your observation or just simply your assumption?
I am one of those Chinese who have a foreign passport or green card. The very simple reason for me to get a piece of paper like this is just because I could be able to travel to Europe and Americas without all the visa bullshit, not that "China is not a stable place and things could go downhill very quickly."
Besides, I keep all my bank savings in China instead of converting it to dollars which is going down rapidly against RMB. I also invest in real estate in China because it is the hottest market to profit.

BTW, Im from Mainland. I also wish I could have a HK passport instead of a foreign passport, because a HK passport can have access to many western countries without visas, as well as Mainland China. But foreign passports will have to apply for a mainland visa.
I dont know the exact reason why it is harder for Mainland Chinese to get visas to western countries, probably because too many Chinese have been there and stayed illegally, or just simply because our government is ruled by a communist party, which automatically become the enemy of all western "capitalist" countries.
anyways, it is not something that i could change. But I can assure you that I would never wanted a foreign passport if the Chinese passport was as useful in terms of traveling.

It's amazing to see how people, including some foreigners try twisting and turning patriotism in China into something ugly and bad. According to this guys Vines, Chinese patriotism means "solely identifying with the Chinese mainland the CCP". BS. Why is it so hard for him and many other people (especially those "puzzled" foreigners) to understand that many Hong Kong residents are simply identifying themselves with "China" and "Chinese ness" and celebrating their roots- being Chinese? What's wrong with that? What's wrong with HK people cheering for China at the Olympics? They are Chinese after all. What are people expecting? Them not cheering for China but for Britain??

"You are either for or against this type of government(referring to China's one-party state)". Gee, how familiar! We've heard that from somewhere, haven't we? I am baffled that there are people like Vines out there who believe that as long as one doesn't approve of the regime/government, you can't feel patriotic toward the country. Gee. I just don't get certain people. Who is to say China = CCP?

And what's wrong with being pragmatic? As several Chinese posters have pointed out, some Chinese choosing to carry foreign passports not because they think China is going to slip into a hell hole but simply because it is CONVENIENT for them to travel to foreign countries. If you were a Chinese citizen you would have to go through a length process to get a tourist visa to visit say Japan, but if you were a US citizen you could simply hop on a plane going to Japan. Carrying foreign passports or resident cards doesn't mean these people are cutting ties to China, it doesn't mean that they can't feel patriotic toward China. Following this strange logic I'd say those long-term foreign expats who became residents of China should not feel patriotic toward their respective countries? BS.

Finally, Vines considered the uproar over elected or appointed government officials carrying foreign passports a problem associated with one-party states. Oh really? I don't think the British or the American public would be happy if they find out some of their highest officials are foreign citizens. They ask every citizen to pay allegiance to their country, let alone their government officials who could seriously jeopardize their national interests with their conflicts of interests.

This coming from a Brit, I think it can be dismissed as what it is, sour grape. I am just amazed by the number of foreigners getting annoyed by Chinese patriotism, and nationalism etc. I certainly understand that they don't share it (just like the Chinese wouldn't share the frenzy of the July 4th celebrations), but they should be able to understand why the Chinese feel way. If you can't stand foreigners feeling patriotic toward their own countries, go home and find your own patriotic bunch.

Charles,

I disagree, as most HK people have no monetary interests in the mainland. I think it is because these HK people are finally starting to shake off the British colonial mentality. After all they are Chinese. Blood is thicker than scotch.

Why did so many Irish Americans support the IRA? Because they are Irish. It is that simple.

Well said Pffefer. China lives by Chinese rules and we should respect that. If ordinary citizens are content with the way they're goverened who are we to criticise? Western liberal democratic ideologies aren't the right prescriptions for all societies.

I always wonder about to what extent using foreign sources to understand China or people in China is good. If it's about China or how chinese think about anything, why not just go to ask them. they are the original source. I think it's a matter of trust; that is whether the western journalists would like to reach out to this ground. Understanding is a "mutual" thing; both perspectives, chinese or western, should be given equal opportunity. HK people, mainly Cantonese, do share different traits than people i.e. from beijing. Actually people from North are substantially different from those in the South. Any social issues can be broken down into "People issue". Failing to validate the diversity of the people, how grounded can the investigation be. I hope to see more reports on the cultural, even political differences on people in China.

But anyhow, it is a very good interview. And I also recommend Pheonix TV, a mandarin media from HK, to western journalists. There are a bunch of Chinese talking about politics everyday, with both Chinese and western characters. I like the attitude there, critical but constructive.

Uh… did you watch the same video I just watched?

When does he say that patriotism means "solely identifying with the Chinese mainland the CCP"? He asks rhetorical questions that are intended to illustrate how complex the issue of patriotism is. He even goes so far to say the annual mourning of certain events is intensely patriotic!

Furthermore, his point about being for us or against us is not discussing HK Chinese conflict with patriotism (which he mentions how ‘attached to China’ HK Chinese are, but that they may not be comfortable with a one-party state – the paradox) but rather that the Chinese government does not understand the paradox of HK Chinese patriotism because the government’s attitude is “you are either for us or against us.”

Also, at what point does he say that holding a foreign passport means HK Chinese are cutting ties with China or that as a result they are not patriotic?

Finally, He does not assert that because it’s a one-party state folks are upset that their officials have passport (and so countries with multi-party systems would somehow be ok with dual passport wielding citizens). Rather the fact that many of HK's middle class have foreign passports (due to the inherent instability of one-party states) naturally many of their representatives would also have foreign passports! Apparently its pragmatic for regular HK Citizens but when it comes to their officials they should swear an allegiance that normal citizens do not need to uphold?

If one of the purposes of getting a foreign passport is not so that if things go bad, you can escape then why was there a run on foreign passports at the lead up to 1997? China is an emerging market, there are social, economic and political risks that are more prominent than in developed nations, hence one of the reasons why it is difficult for mainland Chinese to get foreign Visas and one of the reasons why there is an interest in foreign passports. But I suppose to want to split from your country if there was a collapse into anarchy because your life and your family’s life is in jeopardy is simply not patriotic and so no one can now, with the Olympics upon us, admit to wanting passports for this reason as they would freely admit before ‘97.
Talk about twisting… I don’t think I have ever witnessed someone so misquoted and poorly misunderstood just so that you can make a point about how amazed you are about foreign ignorance of China.

i am not sure about how HK Chinese think, but as for me, i have to repeat that the reason for me to get a foreign passport is not because i could escape from China if things go bad. As a contrast, if things do go bad in China, I will go back to do whatever i could to keep my family safe there, or to fight for whatever i think is the best for the country, even if it would be a brutal civil war. I would never run away from my dear motherland when it is in jeopardy. You might think it is silly or whatever, but it is my patriotism toward the country where my ancestors have been living in for thousands of years.

Also, the wave of HK emigration before 1997 is not a very good example for the argument of foreign passports as a tool to escape. Firstly, before 1997, HK chinese didnt know much about the mainland government, or probably all they knew was the negative part of the government. Secondly, back in the 90's, China's economy wasnt growing as fast as nowadays. Thats why the HK Chinese felt insecure to be ruled by a notorious government from a poor region. But after HK's return, China has proven to the world that our economy is doing much better, and to HK that they can retain highly autonomous governance. Situation has changed for the pass decade, and you cant say people who are holding foreign passports for the same reason.

None of you got what he said.... He is asking questions and pointing at the complexities of defining who and what is Chinese and how each people might feel about it.

He never pretended to give all the answers, he is pointing out facts and his owmn personal observations (and stating they are) Not because you don't feel mainland is unstable means HKers agree with you. I am sick of people voicing their opinion claiming to represent hundreds of million of people.

It is the easy way out to say every foreigner is wrong and we are just fine. The road less travelled is to judge every persons opinion by their own merits and question your own society and the rest of the world.....

Tim,

#1: Rhetorical question? Give me a break. By answering the question "Is HK patriotic about China?" with two "rhetorical questions", vines was clearly implying that the former ("solely identifying with the Chinese mainland the CCP") was not the right way to be patriotic. And I'd like to ask him and you, why? What's wrong with identifying with mainland China? Note the word "solely" coming out of Vine's mouth.

#2: My bad, I did misunderstand him regarding "you are either with us or against us".

#3: Vines did not say "holding a foreign passport means HK Chinese are cutting ties with China", actually that's a point that I was making, in response to Oliver's mockery of some Chinese who carry foreign passports ("Be patriotic to the motherland but have a foreign passport just in case"). Carrying a foreign passport is not a big deal, it doesn't change who the person is.

Sure, for some people that might be the way to get the hell out when things go bad, but I doubt that's the case for most people.

"China is an emerging market, there are social, economic and political risks that are more prominent than in developed nations, hence one of the reasons why it is difficult for mainland Chinese to get foreign Visas"?

Really? Is it equally hard for Indians, Brazilians and Russians to get foreign visas? For the same reason?

Pffefer –
1 - I’m still not convinced we are watching the same footage; otherwise you are pulling some serious punches. I am confused: Are you saying that Chinese patriotism is defined by Vines as solely identifying with the Chinese Mainland, and the CCP as in your first post (where you argue how hard it is for foreigners to understand that HK residents are simply identifying with being Chinese). Or rather, are you saying Vines insists that solely identifying with the Mainland and the CCP is clearly the wrong way to be patriotic? These are two different arguments.

He is asked: “…is HK patriotic about China?” To which he replies that this is a big thing that people are trying to figure out. Does it mean that you solely identify with the Chinese Mainland? That you identify with its rulers, the CCP? Does it mean that you identify with HK’s uniqueness? He then suggests that MAYBE it might be HK’s uniqueness as a cosmopolitan city and further clarifies that HK Chinese “are genuinely attached to China. To the whole idea of the emerging Chinese nation.” He goes on to ask, rhetorically, if they really like to be a part of a one party state.

I don’t know why this exchange needs explaining but he is clearly not saying one way is better than the other he is giving his opinion about how he thinks HK Chinese identify with their patriotism.

2 – It happens

3 - I would agree in most cases; but it can be a big deal when senior government officials in your country are dual citizens. And apparently one that is an issue in HK right now.

4 – I assume by your lack of acknowledgment that you would agree that Vines was stating that many middle class HK Chinese have a foreign passport and that these officials who also have foreign passports thought, possibly as a result, that they would get away with it without comments. I think he makes a convincing argument about why HK Chinese have foreign passports actually.

5 – Yes, it is hard for Indians, Brazilians and Russians to get Visas. Equally hard? I don’t know. Immigration is far more complex than most people understand. I would suspect it was harder for Russians than it is for Brazilians and Indians, but all will be harder than if you were coming from Japan, US, or France. Actually it was always my impression that it was rather easy for a HK citizen to get Visas. At least that was my experience when I worked within immigration in the States.

Just remember: No Chinese want to leave China and go live in foreign countries that have less pollution, corruption, and poisonous food. They don't want to leave because of the medical system or the government, either. In fact, all Chinese love China so much that it is just insane for anyone to suggest that they would want a foreign passport or a greencard.

So just ignore the fact that 95% of the students who leave China do everything in their power not to go back. They become Canadian, Australian, and US citizens purely for the sake of CONVENIENCE so they don't have to get a visa when they want to go to Vegas for the weekend.

And the 5% who do decide to go back prove that China is a paradise on earth -- with shopping malls!

And when they poll Chinese on the internets asking if they would like to be Chinese in their next lives and 80% or whatever say "Are you kidding me?" -- just ignore that. Those Sina polls are funded by the CIA.

why you ethnocentric people just assume that the chinese people just hate the country so much that we try all means to escape from it, or we just hate being born as chinese?
china is a food paradise for me. yes, there is poisonous food, but better than processed junk food, or sweet and fried "chinese" takeout. just to be fair, im not a fan of any western cuisine.
china is also a fun paradise for me. my boring life in the middle of nowhere in north america made me miss shanghai or beijing so much that i could even ignore the dirty air there. personally speaking, beijing is so much more fun than a clean beautiful but "nothing going on" countryside town in north america when im still at my 20s.
you dont have to understand what it is in china that worths the chinese people missing. im just missing something i grew up with. of course, i dont want to sound so hypocritical. holding a foreign passport or green card will give me the option to retire in this beautiful north american town. then again, CONVENIENCE and MORE OPTIONS TO LIFE are the MOTIVATIONS!!!!!not that china sucks!!!!

tim,
"China is an emerging market, there are social, economic and political risks that are more prominent than in developed nations, hence one of the reasons why it is difficult for mainland Chinese to get foreign Visas"?

im just curious, according to your theory, mexico or Argentina is a much more developed and stable country than china? because as i have known of, mexican people can visit japan without visas for 180 days, Argentinian for 90 days.
or i just assume it is more likely because of the big population in china or india.

just assume that the chinese people just hate the country so much that we try all means to escape from it, or we just hate being born as chinese?

Because 1) they vote with their feet, despite what people like you say, and 2) they actually say themselves that they "hate being born Chinese." Maybe it has something to do with that?

Bill,

So your argument is that those Chinese who moved overseas and/or adopted foreign citizenship did so because they thought China was falling into in a downward spiral, that they wanted to have nothing to do with China, that they resented for being Chinese?

What a retarded argument.

Let me ask you a question: Why did so many of you come to China? Opportunities, correct? People go wherever opportunities lead them to. For the same reason (plus higher standard of living and for a few, political freedom) those Chinese went overseas and chose to stay. Why did they adopt foreign citizenship? Let me say it again: CONVENIENCE (for some maybe the feeling of fitting in). Seriously, what do a foreign passport and a Chinese passport differ these days, in terms of perks? It is far easier to travel with foreign passports. That's pretty much it. You think those Chinese detest China and everything about it so much that they want to become foreign citizens? You think those Chinese love these foreign countries so much that they want to become their citizens? I don't know what you are smoking, boy.

By the way, bill, I thought you might find this interesting:

A guy that I know got his US citizenship last year because he wanted to go back to China for good. He had the green card, which required him to stay in the States for at least 6 months each year. After he became a US citizen he did not have to stay in the US for a single day any more. I asked him why he didn't simply give up his green card and keep his Chinese citizenship. He told me it was much easier to travel to foreign countries (he travels to Japan and SE Asia a lot) using a US passport. For him and for a lot of people, it is that simple. Do you think he detests China and loves the US that much that he wanted to become a US citizen? You are crazy if you thought yes.

You think those Chinese detest China and everything about it so much that they want to become foreign citizens?

Most of them detest the corruption, the pollution, the medical system, and the hassles of living under that corrupt system. Yes. I wouldn't say they detest "China."

You can pretend that that isn't the case all you want.

In fact, this probably underlies the exaggerated displays of patriotism and nationalism that most Chinese feel compelled to display -- they are overcompensating. Kind of like closet/conflicted homosexuals who go out and beat up homosexuals to prove how straight they are. In fact, China has always lacked sufficient quantities of "patriotism." That is precisely why everyone is obsessed with it there.

Bill,

This one is for you:

中国梦 VS 美国梦：华人徘徊围城进出两难
http://news.wenxuecity.com/messages/200807/news-gb2312-646340.html

well, bill, they say whatever they want to. im not speaking for all. but my personal experience is most chinese people who never ever left china would normally idealize life in overseas. foreigners who come to china complain about how imperfect china is. chinese people who have been abroad come back telling people how great foreign countries are. it gives some chinese people a wrong impression that overseas is a paradise. i used to be one of them. i was so ashame of my country and i hated it and i just wanted to get out.

After i came here, i realized this paradise wasnt as perfect as i imagined. take spitting and jaywalking for example, they are mostly related to the image for chinese people, but i came here to surprisingly find out new yorkers jaywalk as well, and rednecks spit as well.

dont get me wrong that i dont like your country at all. your country is absolutely beautiful and as free as you said, but im just not sure if i can fit in. i just miss living in china, being able to socialize normally and eating my favorite food? i was quite a outgoing person in china, but im having difficulties making a life here, just because my brain isnt always thinking on the same page as yours, and my mouth can never come out with all the words in my brain as fast and efficiently in a second language. hence, i become the social outcast or weirdo, or loser in this society. yes, in some way, your country is better, but it doesnt mean it is a paradise for all.

are you saying im not allowed to feel patriotic about my country just because my country sucks according to your standard? are you saying my country isnt so perfect that my patriotism toward it is "overcompensating"?

Bill,

I am sure there is a lot in China for people to detest, like those that you have mentioned, but that doesn't make China a special case at all as each country has its shares of problems that its citizens detest, including your very own country, right? Having loads of problems doesn't make the Chinese and your compatriots less "patriotic", does it?

By the way, why are you still in China if you detest those so much? Or is that why you left and went back to your home country, aka, "Utopia"?

When it comes to diplaying patriotism/nationalism, I don't think the Chinese are that different from say the Americans. Both are very patriotic/nationalistic if you ask me. Both could easily get too over-the-top. However there is one striking difference: Chinese display of patriotism/nationalism is rather defensive, it often ignites when China is pounded by foreign criticism/bashing/pressure/lecture/condescension etc. I saw a guy wearing "@#$%ing west, get your dirty hands off China!" T-shirt the other day. You will never see some American, British or German dude wearing a shirt asking the Chinese or the Russians to back off.

Hi guys,
Just thought I'd mention the reason for the visa difficulty btw. CN and other nations is due to "reciprocity" an immigration principle where if nation A waives visa requirements for nation B, nation B does the same for nation A. There are a few African and S. American/Caribbean countries whose nationals don't need visas to visit China, and that's b/c Chinese nationals don't need them to go there!

Also, I can tell you for sure most people these days who do carry a BN(O) pp (or anything other than an HKSAR pp) do it for ease of travel, and not because they're afraid of China imploding. You guys need to lighten up.